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        good or bad construction?? Sign In/Join 
        posted
        Whats wrong with this picture???one of my basement windows and yes those are floor joist's above.

        basement window
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        From the picture it looks like you have a lintel running across the window to carry the load, that would be good. To my experienced layman's eye I'd probably like to see a piece of steel angle iron carrying the load across the window as well. The concrete lintel may be enough. I'm not a structural engineer so don't go by my advice based on a 2x3 inch picture.

        Your floor joists are engineered wood I-joists as is your rim joist. They can certainly carry the load. I can't tell if there are hangers connecting the I-joists to the rim joist, it does appear at this size picture to be some sort of metal connector there.

        Since your home has I-joists we can assume it was built in the last 25 years or so and was likely inspected by the building department in the process.

        My concern here would be why no insulation anywhere? Is your foundation insulated on the exterior? Is the basement conditioned or unconditioned space? Where are you located?

        What are your concerns? Is there any cracking in the foundation? Does the window function easily? Is there excessive spring in your floor? Are there cracks or shifts in the structure above this opening?


        General Disclaimer

        Any advice given here is general in nature and is not necessarily valid for your given area. If in doubt check with your local codes enforcement department for what is required when doing electrical, plumbing or structural work on your house. Permits may or may not be required in your area and home owners may not be able to DIY some tasks. I have no way of knowing if you have the skills needed to complete the tasks you are asking about, when in doubt seek professional assistance.

        My advice may be worth exactly what you pay me for it. :-) For the record I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
         
        Posts: 849 | Location: Cary, NC | Registered: Aug 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        Picture of Jaybee
        posted Hide Post
        Ah, what a difference a few inches can make.

        Not the best set-up but calling it good or bad really depends on how that joist on the right is attached to the outer rim I-joist. That rim I-joist is more than large enough to act as a header to span the window opening so if there is some kind of hanger to support the lower cord of the I-joist attached to it, then it's OK.

        However, it sure doesn't look like there is anything there other than a few nails. It's not great construction but realistically it's also not going to cause you any problems in the future. The joist on the left is so close to being fully supported by the block foundation that there is no real load problem. While the joist on the right is too far away from the block to get any direct support, it would have to deflect that 2x sill plate and rip itself free from the rim joist before causing any problems.

        Unless you have some kind of extreme live load sitting directly on top of that joist (like a huge fish tank, large safe or my sister-in-law sitting down for dinner) that I-joist will stay right were it is with no problems.

        I've run into this many times with both engineered trusses and conventional joists. Even our local building inspectors are OK with it as long as it's been there a while.


        Jaybee
         
        Posts: 10424 | Location: Knoxville, Tennessee | Registered: Sep 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        Just pulled the insulation in this spot because the rim you see is just being used as a nailer for the floor joist when house was built,the actual rim on this side of house is 6" block behind the engineered lumber and has a air space between the two which I have decided to insulate with expanding foam before I insulate the interior part of this rim (with more foam then Roxul). The joists in picture rest only on the pressure treated 2 X 6 spanning window gap you see in photo, I finally got the builder to call me back last week and his arguments on my other problem with area next to this (rim joist on brick facade)
        1- was that code was different when house was built
        2- holding company that built house no longer exists (they named holding company after good "Father" of Catholic church they got this land from)
        3- my repairs shouldn't cost me that much and should not be complaining
        4-Better Business Bureau is useless organization that only exists to sell ad space and I would be wasting my time with them (I had sent the builder an email outlining my next steps of writing BBB and Maryland States attorney generals office division of consumer protection, guess that prompted builder to call back all of a sudden)
        5- numerous other excuses as to why these are not their problems or fault and I should not worry about this since my house has not fallen down yet

        And yes, the floor above does has excessive bounce,especially directly against the wall where the major rim joist problem is, that is the spot where I'm going to have to run new floor joists in a brick to grade cantilever setup to put that outer wall on an actual bearing wall (8" block atop 12" block basement wall) instead of that rim just sitting only the poorly built brick facade. Know there are a few contractors that view this site and I have to ask how does this pass inspection?

        I apologize to moderator if info here crosses a legal line but I have not mentioned any names nor used foul language,yet, and always hope there may be some one (besides me) who learns valuable lesson from this mess.
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        quote:
        Originally posted by Jaybee:
        Ah, what a difference a few inches can make.

        Not the best set-up but calling it good or bad really depends on how that joist on the right is attached to the outer rim I-joist. That rim I-joist is more than large enough to act as a header to span the window opening so if there is some kind of hanger to support the lower cord of the I-joist attached to it, then it's OK.

        ad sitting directly on top of that joist (like a huge fish tank, large safe or my sister-in-law sitting down for dinner) that I-joist will stay right were it is with no problems.

        In this instance it looks like they actually followed engineered nailing specs and I can only assume there is one nail into each flange,... the strange thing is that I have another identical basement window with floor joists run perpendicular and that window has a lintel over it and therefore supporting the sill plate and joists above. In both places there is a doublewide set of windows directly above on the first floor.The questionable one has two stories above and the "good" one has only one story over it. This all just makes no sense to me.
        I know if I have to host any large party's in the near future I may need to rope this room off as the "look but don't enter nice fancy dining room".
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        If it will make you sleep better at night you could beef this up. It looks like the block wall is wider than the 2x plate spanning the window. Get a lintel support, a heavy steel angle iron that is about 3.5" on each side. They are commonly used across windows on brick homes to support the load of the brick above. Lay this in across the opening and then using pressure treated 2x stock fill the gap between the lintel and the I-joists above so that they are resting on the PT 2x stock. If you are going to finish the basement install a 2x4 wall along here and use a double top plate, and possibly a header across the window opening. I doubt you could get a I-joist hanger in there to support the I-joist properly. The I-joist hangers I've seen go over the top to the rim joist and are nailed there or on the other side of the rim I-joist.

        The bounce in your floor may or may not be solved by this. If the bounce were caused by the lack of support on the end you'd see movement in the I joist against the rim I-joist. Some deflection in the middle of the floor is common, there are specs for how much is allowed.

        Our last house had floor trusses. The previous owner didn't like the bounce in the floor so he took and nailed some 2x6's the length of the floor truss to stiffen it. That one really caused my home inspector to scratch his head. We became friends with the previous owners so I asked him about it and he told me why he did it. Not sure this would help you, the ends would need to be supported.


        General Disclaimer

        Any advice given here is general in nature and is not necessarily valid for your given area. If in doubt check with your local codes enforcement department for what is required when doing electrical, plumbing or structural work on your house. Permits may or may not be required in your area and home owners may not be able to DIY some tasks. I have no way of knowing if you have the skills needed to complete the tasks you are asking about, when in doubt seek professional assistance.

        My advice may be worth exactly what you pay me for it. :-) For the record I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
         
        Posts: 849 | Location: Cary, NC | Registered: Aug 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        Good call on the double plate,I wouldn't have thought about it until framing in that spot. I sent email to the mason I have coming to improve brick and other things and he'll probably suggest the angle iron too. The nailer rim is doubled where it crosses over window to add support there. The bounce is worst in the other spot.
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        Picture of Jaybee
        posted Hide Post
        You know, there is really not very much to this. The whole thing is how well that I-joist on the right is attached to the Rim I-joist. The rim joist is more than stout enough to span a 36" opening - even more so since it's sitting on a 2x and a stone lintel. Unless that I-joist on the right is ONLY attached to the 2x sill plate, if you have a bouncing problem it is not caused by this area.

        If this area is to fail, it will be a slow failure over time - shown by that 2x sill starting to deform. Currently it's not doing that so there is no problem.

        All you need to do to make this as strong (or stronger) than it needs to be is to add a 2x4 filler block to the end of the joist on the right, a similar filler 2x4 block to the intersection point on the rim joist and then join them together with about a 10" long corner angle brace. You could do the same to the I-joist on the left if you want, but it's not ever going to have a problem as it is.

        I'm not trying to downplay this, rather it's really not that much of a problem.


        Jaybee
         
        Posts: 10424 | Location: Knoxville, Tennessee | Registered: Sep 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        quote:
        Originally posted by Jaybee:
        You know, there is really not very much to this. The whole thing is how well that I-joist on the right is attached to the Rim I-joist. The rim joist is more than stout enough to span a 36" opening - even more so since it's sitting on a 2x and a stone lintel. Unless that I-joist on the right is ONLY attached to the 2x sill plate, if you have a bouncing problem it is not caused by this area.

        If this area is to fail, it will be a slow failure over time - shown by that 2x sill starting to deform. Currently it's not doing that so there is no problem.

        All you need to do to make this as strong (or stronger) than it needs to be is to add a 2x4 filler block to the end of the joist on the right, a similar filler 2x4 block to the intersection point on the rim joist and then join them together with about a 10" long corner angle brace. You could do the same to the I-joist on the left if you want, but it's not ever going to have a problem as it is.

        I'm not trying to downplay this, rather it's really not that much of a problem.


        thanks Jaycee,"rim boards" set on the sill plate and plate spans the window with no lintel or anything else under it. The part behind the the "rim boards" is 6" block stacked and acting as the the real rim to bear the walls (two stories) above. In this case the "rim boards" which are also same material as floor joists (I joists) only appear to have been used as nailer to stand the floor joists during construction and if (big "IF") nailing specs for said I-joists were followed there will be one nail in each flange through the ends and two nailing each bottom flange to the 2x6.
        The basement window itself has a narrow (6") lintel across the top of it and of course the two stories of back walls over that.
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        Oops,Jaybee, ipad wants to call you Jaycee and if not watching it closely once you hit space bar it puts in the correction for you. Still getting the hang of this newfangled technology.
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        Picture of Jaybee
        posted Hide Post
        No problem, I've been called worse....much worse.

        You know, you've had quite a few posts about some, shall we say, "less than conventional construction" on this house. Have you brought in a knowledgeable construction guy who you trust to just give your house a once over? I just know that many of us here have seen your pictures and read your descriptions of what's going on with your house and yet I'm not sure if any of us really have a good, clear picture of the whole situation. It seems that an on-site visit by a pro could answer most of your concerns with more accuracy than all of us combined here can do.

        And as to ipads and technology - I totally understand. I got a 'smart phone' a few weeks ago and it is very good at making me feel stupid. I live in fear that I will text a message to my wife that says, "I'm heading home, what's for dinner?" and it will autocorrect it into, "I'm leaving you for a large breasted blond"


        Jaybee
         
        Posts: 10424 | Location: Knoxville, Tennessee | Registered: Sep 27, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        During this process of trying to figure out what needs addressing and what's sufficient "as is" I have had two different contractors look at some of this, one of whom actually worked for the builder of this house but left them before this was done. He said crew he worked with would never have built it this way and back then if they spotted problems in design they would correct on the fly and said they ran into numerous occasions where architect goofed or miscalculated. This person also happens to be a friend of mine and I have done some construction work with when he was short handed and didn't mind a flyfishing guide helping out.
        The other contractor thought this was also unusual "details", Weyerhaeuser folk's said they have NEVER seen detail like this.
        Other thing that has been nagging at me is fact that this builder refused to let me get blueprints once before years ago when I first wanted to reinforce steel I-beams (at least 14 years ago). The blueprint would greatly assist in calculating what was needed and structural engineering company suggested I get them. I forget the excuse I got back then but wished I had been a bit more persistent.
        Reason for steel beam work was lally column removal to create larger room.
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        "Your floor joists are engineered wood I-joists as is your rim joists . They can certainly carry the load. I can't tell if there are hangers connecting the I-joists to the rim joist, it does appear at this size picture to be some sort of metal connector there.

        Since your home has I-joists we can assume it was built in the last 25 years or so and was likely inspected by the building department in the process.

        My concern here would be why no insulation anywhere? Is your foundation insulated on the exterior? Is the basement conditioned or unconditioned space? Where are you located?"
        quote:


        Sparky, sorry for pic size but that's all I can send on this site. To answer you questions, there are no hangers here,I'm around Baltimore, the basement is unconditioned at moment and I'm in process of trying to finish it (soon as I get past this two steps back stage). As far as inspection goes I'm seriously starting to wonder, maybe it got checked by builder's cousin who happened to be inspector or some other similar deal that swung in their favor. Not sure how else to explain things I've come across. Don't know if you saw in other reply that I had just pulled old insulation down to get expanding spray foam insulation between "rim" boards and block rim that is behind it (filling air space between them).

        This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        If the 2 by spanning the window is supported on three sides, it poses no threat.
         
        Posts: 887 | Registered: Jan 29, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
        posted Hide Post
        quote:
        Originally posted by ron45:
        If the 2 by spanning the window is supported on three sides, it poses no threat.


        Only two sides, 12" block on each side of window,....window is set towards outer edge and has 6" wide block over top of it, the 2 X 6 runs along side it over span. Crazy thing is my other identical size basement window has "normal" configuration,they are both set at same height from floor.
        The 6" Block "lintel"(?) is under the outer framed walls above (2 stories).I'm in the process of drawing this stuff up using SKETCHUP so I can send detailed information to engineers,contractors,lawyers etc...
         
        Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 15, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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