DIY Message Boards
basement floor and subfloor for heavy pool table

This topic can be found at:
http://boards.diynetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9221916776/m/5243915008

Jan 15, 2014, 09:09 PM
measure2
basement floor and subfloor for heavy pool table
I'm starting process of finishing my basement and will be creating a billiard room. Would like to know if anyone out there has ideas about subfloor and flooring that will be good for 1600+ pound 10 ft antique victor pool table. I have been researching platon, delta and DMX type materials which would be covered with osb, or rigid foam board which would also be covered with osb, want either to create barrier from cold concrete floor.. then either option to be topped by a durable floor that won't shift or gap and can take the occasional billiard ball hit. Really trying to avoid any carpet as it seems prone to attracting mold. Confused

This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,


Jan 15, 2014, 09:51 PM
Jaybee
If you know where you plan to put the table, your best bet may be to put a solid 'subfloor' in the areas under the table legs. For example, 1/2" rigid foam makes a great insulator and can be covered with tow layers of plywood to make a strong floating subfloor. If you replaced the foam under the leg area with 1/2" plywood or 1/2" concrete board, they you would not have any compression issues in those areas.

You could then install a vinyl, hard tile or hardwood directly on top of the floating subfloor.


Jaybee
Jan 16, 2014, 12:53 PM
measure2
Thanks Jaybee..I have pretty good idea on where tble will sit, the feet, four of them,are fairly large ( about 9" x 22") so they spread the weight out some .I don't have an exact figure on the tables poundage but it has 1 1/2 slates (3) and the base (cabinet I think they call it) is bulky and made mostly of hard maple. I haven't been able to track down the particular model at Victor billiards since it dates back to the 30's-40's.
As far as flooring goes, I a little worried that tile could break from pool balls hitting it, Plus real hard floor may damage balls.

10 X 5 pool table

Jan 16, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jaybee
Since you don't want carpet the ideal simple solution would be a floating floor. This would have a thin foam backer that actually does a lot to isolate the cold concrete from the living space. The thing is, you cannot put that heavy table on concrete.

One alternate solution would be to have one type of flooring in a rectangle directly under the table. This could be tile, glue-down hardwood, vinyl or a glue-down hard tile. Then, the floating floor cold be installed all around it and into the rest of the room.


Jaybee
Jan 17, 2014, 08:20 AM
measure2
quote:
One alternate solution would be to have one type of flooring in a rectangle directly under the table. This could be tile, glue-down hardwood, vinyl or a glue-down hard tile. Then, the floating floor cold be installed all around it and into the rest of the room.


Not a bad Idea Jaybee
I have seen photo of something like that on one of the billiard forums I think...I have contemplated something similar but I would still like to insulate the floor a little more.Do you know of anyone ever using composite boards (deck material) as sleepers. I've been thinking this could be way do the support area just under table (say a 12' X 7'area),match thickness to the foam being used and then fill spaces between them with rigid foam board like a regular sleeper floor is done, then still be able to lay out the rest of the room with the rigid foam (3/4 or 1 inch) butted together and top it all with 5/8 osb screwed down. Shouldn't the composite do better on the concrete than standard lumber? Just thinking out loud here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
Jan 17, 2014, 05:30 PM
Jaybee
quote:
Originally posted by measure2:



I have contemplated something similar but I would still like to insulate the floor a little more.Do you know of anyone ever using composite boards (deck material) as sleepers. I've been thinking this could be way do the support area just under table (say a 12' X 7'area),match thickness to the foam being used and then fill spaces between them with rigid foam board like a regular sleeper floor is done, then still be able to lay out the rest of the room with the rigid foam (3/4 or 1 inch) butted together and top it all with 5/8 osb screwed down. Shouldn't the composite do better on the concrete than standard lumber? Just thinking out loud here.[/QUOTE]

Good idea. The rigid foam is sturdy enough to support most anything ....except a huge pool table so the PT sleepers will work. This method does require two layers of plywood or OSB, not one as the two layers are screwed together to make a giant floating subfloor. The bottom layer needs to be 3/4" and the top 1/2" for enough strength.

Even with the floating subfloor and solid support under the table, you still cannot use a floating floor under the table legs - too much weight in a concentrated area. YO ualso cannot install something very rigid like tile on top of a floating subfloor.


Jaybee
Jan 18, 2014, 09:35 AM
measure2
Good idea. The rigid foam is sturdy enough to support most anything ....except a huge pool table so the PT sleepers will work. This method does require two layers of plywood or OSB, not one as the two layers are screwed together to make a giant floating subfloor. The bottom layer needs to be 3/4" and the top 1/2" for enough strength.
quote:

Wouldn't I only need the one layer of tongue and groove osb if I'm screwing it down through the foam and into the concrete with tapcons? (was my original plan)
Also , I have some Ipe scraps from deck jobs that I could put down as sleepers,...yes I know its hard to work with but seems to be indestructable ( pieces have been "stored" outside under friends porch on dirt for probably 7 years and still look great) and best part is they are free.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
Jan 18, 2014, 10:16 AM
Jaybee
Using the Ipe as sleepers is a good idea (other than it being a shame to put such beautiful wood to that use) Smile

Using tap cons to attach a single layer of T&G to the concrete floor will not work. Several reasons:

1. No concrete slab is perfectly level. Pulling the subfloor down with TapCons will force the wood to follow any uneven contours.
2. In the same vein, it is almost impossible to regulate the height of the plywood. It will be sitting over the compressible foam so unless you get the exact same pull for every TapCon, your wood subfloor will have dips and rises in it.
3. The biggie - Your 3/4" OSB needs to be attached every 8" in both directions. That's 91 TapCons per 4x8 sheet. Aside from massive amounts of time needed to do this, you will burn up hundreds of masonry drill bits and certainly more than one hammer drill. TapCons ain't cheap - you will drop a few hundred dollars to do an average sized basement.

Since your objective is to get a sturdy subfloor that you can attach a finished floor to and provide some insulation to control temperature and dampness, here's an alternative:

It's called a floating subfloor.

1. Start by laying your 1" foam directly on the concrete slab. Tape all seams of the foam - this will hold them from shifting during the install and have the foam work as a vapor barrier too.

2. Lay out a layer of 3/4" subfloor material (plywood or OSB is fine) Do not use T&G, use regular 4x8 sheets. Make your lay-out pattern so that the OSB seams do not line up with the foam seams in any direction. Note that it doesn't hurt the final product if you use T&G, just that it makes the installation much harder and since the layer is sandwiched between the foam and top layer, the T&G is not needed.

3. Lay out a second layer of subfloor. This needs to be at least 1/2" but can also be 3/4". Here too, make sure that the lay-out pattern with this layer does not line up with the layer below.

4. Attach the top layer to the bottom layer with screws sized for the material thickness. Use 1-1/4" if your layers are 3/4" + 1/2" or use 1-1/2" screws if using two 3/4" layers.

5. Bonding the two subfloor layers together like this creates one huge floating subfloor. While it does 'float' on top of the foam it is so massive that you can install a variety of finished floor products on top. You can even do a nail-down hardwood. About the only thing you can't do is tile as there will still be a slight amount of flex.

6. When installing the OSB in both layers, leave about 1/2" gap around the perimeter to allow for expansion. Also, you can use a subflooring glue in-between the two OSB layers if you want, but it's not necessary.

One of the downsides to this method it that between having a layer of foam, two layers of subfloor and then a finished floor, you will be adding anywhere from 2-1/4" to 3" to the height of the original slab floor. On the plus side - It will give you a nice, rigid subfloor to work with, is fairly easy to install and although you will have some material expenses, that second layer of OSB and all the screws needed will be a lot less expensive than TapCons.

This type of floating subfloor is common for dance studios - they need a rigid finish floor like hardwood but also need a floor that has a slight 'give' to it to avoid injuries. In the case of a dance studio floor, it's common to use a good grade of carpet pad instead of rigid foam.


Jaybee
Jan 19, 2014, 02:16 PM
tstex
We do not have basements in Texas, but we do have condensation issues w concrete and when it rains a lot, water issues on the perimeter of the solid foundations.

First, nice billiards table, especially the circa. I like JB's idea of a solid floor under all of the B-table. You just have to make sure this will be the permanent place. If you do ever move out the b-table, you could put an area rug over this area.

Next, I would forget tile. Bad for both ball and tile itself. Any floor you choose, emulate the final configuration [6ml foam, OSB [etc], then your final floor. Get some final floor samples and drop some pool balls from 5-6ft...if the floor resists that, then it should uphold well when playing if a ball leaves the table. I can tell you that the thicker the polyurethane on any floor covering, the better it will protect the actual floor, but the more your odds increase that a ding could be left in the finish. You do not see these directly, but at the right angle and light, you will see it well. This is where your pool-ball drop test will come in handy.

Finally, you can always put some kind of insulator directly under the 4 legs themselves that is slightly less that the total area of the leg. This will give the table a bit of a cushion and soften its impact on the floor.

Good luck,
tstex

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tstex,
Jan 20, 2014, 09:13 PM
measure2
Some great ideas there,..Sorry for delay in response,I been busy fixing,sealing,taping and getting ready to insulate duct work.
Jaybee, are you sure about the amount of tapcons that need to go into each sheet?
I'd also really like to keep the thickness down to about 1 1/2 inches of subfloor.
Reason I ask about the amount of screws for the osb was something I remember seeing in an installation pdf,.. went back through my research and found on the Delta fl product information they had diagram showing only twelve (12) screws per sheet (I understand of course this a bit different product than xps rigid foam). I may need to go this route to keep down thickness and cost(if rigid foam/osb/plywood takes that many screws) and sacrifice some insulating of the floor.One bonus is that Delta's compressive strength is 5200 lbs per sq foot. Hopefully I'm reading their spec sheet right .
Will also have a good idea of how rooms comfort level is when I put up foam on the walls ( maybe I won't need as much on the floor????). As of right now the temps up off the floor are running 59-60 and on the floor it is 56-57. Of course this could drop some when I insulate the duct work. Final plan of course will include some method of heating down there.
We have a big home show coming to Baltimore convention center this weekend so maybe I can grill a few flooring vendors and maybe even test that billiard ball drop on some of their products.

Thanks and keep the good ideas coming...
Jan 20, 2014, 10:47 PM
Jaybee
Horizontal 3/4" needs to be anchored every 8". Considering that it's in a potentially damp area (the concrete slab) it would need every bit of that to stay secure. BTW a thinner sheet OSB or plywood will need even more screws closer together.

But - All that is really a moot point. With the foam underneath, you cannot install TapCons or any other type fastener through the OSB material, through the foam and into the concrete slab and expect it to hold. The problem here is that the foam does have some 'give' to it. While it's only a small amount it applies stress in all the wrong places. Just the act of walking on the flooring will cause a slight up and down movement. Eventually the bond will break - most likely by the TapCons pulling out of the masonry surface below but possibly having the heads of the TapCons pull through the wood surface. It is even possible that the TapCons will break. What is 100% certain is that the floor bond will fail.

You are entering a world where there are too many givens here: You want an insulation barrier. You want a sturdy floor. You want something less than 1-1/2" thick. You want the billiard balls to bounce and not shatter when hitting the floor. You can't get all of that in one package.

While I think that the floating floor system I mentioned a few posts back is overall the best solution to give you the most of what you want, it does have the fact that it is fairly thick going against it.

The alternate (and much less expensive) solution would be to install some form of hard floor directly to the concrete slab in the area underneath the pool table. Tile, glue-down laminate or vinyl will all work. Then, install a conventional snap-together floating floor on a good grade slab-rated pad. Even though the pad is only 1/4" thick it will give the separation needed to keep the dampness away from the finished flooring. Material price for a very good grade of flooring will run about $4/SF while the pad will be $.50/SF

In your original post you wanted to control the dampness from the slab. We have installed quite a few floating floors on slabs over the years. A floating floor with a 1/4" pad will make for a very comfortable basement.


Jaybee
Jan 21, 2014, 08:51 AM
tstex
quote:
The alternate (and much less expensive) solution would be to install some form of hard floor directly to the concrete slab in the area underneath the pool table. Tile, glue-down laminate or vinyl will all work. Then, install a conventional snap-together floating floor on a good grade slab-rated pad. Even though the pad is only 1/4" thick it will give the separation needed to keep the dampness away from the finished flooring. Material price for a very good grade of flooring will run about $4/SF while the pad will be $.50/SF



Keep the above in mind, and then contemplate this idea. IHMO, the billiards table w the circa, age, weight and style is the center piece of this whole conversation really, and then the floor comes next. Arrange the b-table to be the center piece, then, determine the exact location of where the table will go, then the exact dimensions of the table and add about 6" out of the rectangle. Go with a solid floor underneath and a unique design under the table. You make the call on the wood type, pattern, style etc, but make it a solid floor. Then go out in all directions with a floating floor. Envision this: A really nice design/arrangement underneath delineating the table, then work your way out in a pattern befitting to the layout of the room. I believe this will accentuate both your room and the pool table. This is what you see in the mansions in Newport RI...really classy, but that is only my opinion.
Jan 21, 2014, 03:02 PM
measure2
Really appreciate the great input, I'm trying to weigh my options here and eliminate mistakes/problems, especially since a dismantle and move table later ( to correct mistakes) is a very bad (and Costly) thing.
So,it's looking like the solid base area plan is my best option, I am able to narrow down the position for table pretty close.
I have had "I" beam reinforced. I had building engineer figure out plan, then got experienced structural welder implement it and then remove lally column to create a 24 X 17 area which got me above the minimum for this size table which is approx 19.5 X 15. Will try to keep up progress report on the site. Meanwhile it's back to duct work sealing/repair. I am just about ready to hunt down the HVAC installers and send Seattle's Richard Sherman after them to deliver a good verbal thrashing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: measure2,
Jan 22, 2014, 08:11 AM
CommonwealthSparky
Spam bump. Big Grin


Popeye only reached for the Spinach can as a last resort...