Hello to All,

I took your recommendations on buying a product called Timbor to spray on my rafters that had boring insects. The instructions do not indicate if the overspray, if it falls on metal finishes/other, if it does any damage or not. Does anyone know if Timbor will cause a problem on anything with overspray, and if so, what?

I am going to mix the water to spec's, put into my hand sprayer and spray the rafters and all...I will wear PPE and all and now allow anything to touch my skin, eyes, etc.

Thank you for your feedback and follow-up,
tstex

You raise an interesting point that I hadn't considered.

I haven't purchased the product yet but plan to use it in my kitchen where the ants have colonized. I'm wondering now if it's appropriate for use in an area in which food is prepared.

http://terro.com/

Use this instead inside the house.

Borate is the active ingredent in Timbor is Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate. The same active ingredient as BoraCare and all the other borate products. Terro ant bait is DOT and sugar and works well on sweet eating ants.

Usually carpenter ants are a sign of a moisture problem somewhere in or around the structure.

It is a insect and fungi preventative that has low toxicity to mammals.

Soak wood the more the better you're trying to get it to soak in as deep as possible.

Joe, thanks for the suggestion.

Redoverfarm, I'm sure there's a moisture issue because the kitchen casement window is old and doesn't close securely. It's on the replacement list.

I'm with Redoverfarm on this one. Borate based wood preservatives are effective against fungii, such as the wood rot fungii, but they're very safe for mammals.

In fact, in some countries, borax and boric acid are used as food additives.

Tstex: There's no problem with the overspray getting on anything. The stuff isn't acidic nor alkaline and it's highly soluble in water so it's easy to wash off if you want to clean it off of something. I wouldn't drink Timbor, but being that it's active ingredient is a borate, it's one of the safest chemicals that's used to protect wood from wood rot. You don't need to dress like you were going into a biohazard zone to spray this stuff. Just wear your mask to prevent breathing in the vapour and wash your hands after spraying and that's more than you even need to do.

Here in Canada, Timbor is solid by a company called Sasco under the name "Borocol". All the different borate based wood preservatives use the chemical that Redoverfarm named as their active ingredient. And, it's the boron atoms in that stuff that are a natural biocide just like copper and zinc (in copper naphthalate and zinc naphthalate end cut preservatives for wood).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nestor,

Maybe I did not clarify my question.

I am not concerned about the overspray on food storage surfaces, if it goes outside or on the ground. I am spraying this inside a farm garage, but where I store many things with metal surfaces: deep freezer, tiller, lawn mowers, and a host of other surfaces. If the overspra hits these surfaces and dries, will it cause harm to the surface?

Thank you,
tstex

my only concern is , if it is used on rafters that had or has boring insects will it penetrate far enough into the wood if its just sprayed on?
i thought to kill the critters they have to make contact with the borax/boron for it to be effective
I seem to remember reading somthing about injecting it into the bored holes to kill the bugs inside the wood

Nona,

The product has a very long afterlife...it will reside [due to built in surfactant] on the wood for a very long time...once anything eats/bores in to the wood, adios...I am sure it would not hurt to spray into the holes too, where possible. I bought 5 packages that make 1.3 gallons per package, so I have a lot of backup...

Tstex:

Like I said in my last post in this thread:

quote:

Tstex: There's no problem with the overspray getting on anything. The stuff isn't acidic nor alkaline and it's highly soluble in water so it's easy to wash off if you want to clean it off of something.

it's not acidic so it won't attack any bare metal. It's not basic, so it won't neutralize anything acidic being stored in your garage. Think of it as ordinary water with a safe chemical dissolved in it.

Timbor won't do any more harm than the water it's dissolved in. So, the overspray won't do any more harm than leaving that item out in the rain. Maybe put a piece of Scotch tape over the vent holes in the gas cap of your lawnmower and rototiller so you don't get any water in the gasoline.

The stuff is very soluble in water, so if your garage ever gets a roof leak, you'll want to respray any rafters that get the Timbor washed off of them.

Nona: Borate wood preservatives come in both liquid form (like Timbor or Borocol) or as solid rods (like Impel or Cobra rods). The way you normally protect wood with the solid rods is by drilling a hole into the wood, inserting the rod into the hole and then sealing the hole. Then, if that wood ever gets wet enough that wood rot is a concern, the borate will dissolve into the water inside that wood and diffuse throughout the wet wood to kill any fungii (including the wood rot fungus). That's how borate protects wood from rot.

But, the game plan here is to have the wood beetles ingest the borate. The beetles that Tstex has apparantly emerge from the rafter once a year to mate and then bore another hole into the rafter. By putting the borate chemical on the wood, the beetles will ingest the borate as they bore back into the wood after mating.

If it were me, I would circle each beetle hole with a pen or pencil before you spray. That way, you'll know by the number of NEW holes each year how effective the borate is in poisoning beetles. If you can't tell a new hole from an old hole, you don't know how many beetles are still in your rafters. Maybe circle holes this year with black ink, next year with red ink, the following year with green ink, or pencil.

good idea from nestor

quote:

it were me, I would circle each beetle hole with a pen or pencil before you spray. That way, you'll know by the number of NEW holes each year how effective the borate is in poisoning beetles. If you can't tell a new hole from an old hole, you don't know how many beetles are still in your rafters. Maybe circle holes this year with black ink, next year with red ink, the following year with green ink, or pencil.

I'm not familiar with the life cycle of boring beetles (or for the matter, interesting ones. We have enough problems with termites here

Thanks for the explanation Nestor...I was confusing borate with Boric Acid...Borate is more of a salt-based compound, so I can either wash or wipe off...

Regards,
tstex

quote:

Originally posted by redoverfarm:
Borate is the active ingredent in Timbor is Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate. The same active ingredient as BoraCare and all the other borate products. Terro ant bait is DOT and sugar and works well on sweet eating ants.

Usually carpenter ants are a sign of a moisture problem somewhere in or around the structure.

It is a insect and fungi preventative that has low toxicity to mammals.

Soak wood the more the better you're trying to get it to soak in as deep as possible.

Saturation is the key. Go over it and when it is drying out go over it again. You are trying to get the cells of the wood to open up so that the chemical will sink deep into the wood.

Redoverfarm:

I don't think it's a good idea to keep spraying it on like that cuz because once the wood cells at the surface of the wood are saturated with water, they're not going to absorb any more water. Further spraying would just be wasting the chemical as the water drips off the rafters.

If it were me, I would spray it on and let it be absorbed into the wood. Then allow the wood to dry completely, so the water evaporates from the wood but the borates remain behind inside the wood. That way, the wood will absorb borate laced water the next time you spray just like it did the first time.

I would keep letting the wood dry completely after each spraying before spraying again. That way the wood absorbs the most water, and the amount of borate in the wood accumulates fastest so the bugs ingest more borate each time they eat a hole into the wood.

Letting the wood dry completely after each spraying ensures that it absorbs the most borate with each spraying, and that's critical in Tstex's gameplan to get the beetles to ingest borate when boring holes into his rafters. You want the wood cells on the surface of those rafters to be full of borate.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nestor,

That is basicly what I was implying. The cells of the wood open up when wet. By letting it dry completely the cells will close up and not allow the additional borate (new application) to enter. No you do not want to waste it by letting it drip off.

Wood cells don't open or close. Dry wood cells absorb water into the cell walls first, and once no more water is needed to fill up the cell walls, then any excess water fills the interior of the hollow wood cells. Once both the walls and the interior of the cells are full of water, the wood cell won't absorb any more water.

By letting the wood cells dry out completely, they are then able to absorb the most water (chemically treated with Timbor), and the most borate will remains behind inside those wood cells after the water evaporates.

I would let those wood rafters dry for a good week after each spraying to ensure the wood is dry enough to absorb plenty more water (chemically treated with Timbor) the next time I sprayed.

Let's let Tstex interpret the wording of our posts and decide for himself whether or not to spray the rafters as they're drying, or to only spray again after they're completely dry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nestor,

This is what I was trying to say. I am going to treat my log cabin and in an effort to cut cost of expensive pre-mixed borate treatments I found Solubor which is the same chemical as Timbor. Using the glycol will help achieve the greatest saturation.

The glycol is really a wetting agent. Glycols dry slowly and borates travel on the wet, they diffuse from areas of high borate concentration to areas of low concentration but only when the cells are above fiber saturation point, above about 25% mc. The glycol in bora-care is ethylene glycol... anti freeze. It keeps the wood wet longer to allow the borate to diffuse deeper. I use Solubor or Beau-Ron, ag soil ammendments and cheaper than bora care or timbor, all of these are DOT disodium octaborate tetrahydrate. If the wood is already dry I'll add a glycol. If you look up various mixes' MSDS's you'll also find propylene glycol (RV antifreeze) and polyethylene glycol.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: redoverfarm,

Wood works like a sponge, capulary action.

wood cells do expand and contract depending on its moisture content. the wood will change across the grain rather than the end grain. When you do woodworking, you always make allowances for the expansion or contraction