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how to add another plug into each room, help please!!

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Nov 08, 2013, 10:29 AM
how to add another plug into each room, help please!!
Ok, so now I may need to add an additional plug to each bedroom, 3 of them, right now, each bedroom only has one plug..I want it on a different wall. May need to do this for incoming buyers for my house because of the loans they may be getting,,will someone please instruct me on how to do this? Thank you!!
Nov 08, 2013, 12:11 PM
First off, this is really their problem, not yours. While you likely have an older home that does not meet current outlet spacing recommendations, it's not any kind of violation and you situation is grandfathered in as far as any compliance issues are concerned. That said, if they have some weird financing going on and you want to make sure the sale goes through, then you may wish to upgrade to meet their requirements. Just wanted to make it clear that there is no legal reason that you have to do this or take on the expense.

But, if you do go ahead with it, you are going to be locked in to hiring a licensed electrician. You can be darn sure that if their financing package is picky enough to require additional outlets that they will need to see an invoice from a licensed electrician.

So your DIY plan is to pick up the phone and call an electrician. If you have access from below in these three rooms it will not be too difficult and should cost you under $1,000. If there is living space below these rooms then it will get more complicated.

Nov 08, 2013, 12:21 PM
you have even more issues if there is not an arc-fault breaker to the bedroom circuits. and even MORE if you have an old panel that does not have arc-fault breakers availiable, like an FPE or Zinser/Sylvania, both lines also having many other safety issues in the panel itself.

code required that if you touch the circuits, they have to meet current standards. and that means arc-fault breakers.

the costs could skyrocket. arc-fault breakers generally have a white test button on them. if yours don't, I heartily endorse the suggestion that you leave this alone, unless you are really desperate to sell.

sig: if this is a new economy, how come they still want my old-fashioned money?
Nov 09, 2013, 07:58 AM
As the two astute members before me have posted many issues come into play here. Ask around for references of a qualified electrician and list what you will like to have upgraded. He [or she] will then provide a quote listing all upgrades to be performed to meet current codes. Good luck.

Popeye only reached for the Spinach can as a last resort...
Nov 09, 2013, 03:26 PM
Hi guys, thank you so much for your answers! Here is the issue I am facing..if someone gets a USDA loan..I told my realtor, it sounds like they are buying a dozen eggs or something! But anyway, this loan type does not require a downpayment, if there are more than 3 steps, it requires a handrail, which I got rid of when I bought the house because I hated it and it just made the steps narrower..but also if there is any chipping or peeling paint, it must be taken care of, or it requires all rooms to have at least 3 outlets! Stupid! I've been fine with one outlet in the upstairs! Just rearrange the furniture so the TV can be plugged in! But, its a PA government loan, and it sucks..and yes there is living space living room, dining room, kitchen and basement..I just got done getting a new breaker box installed so I wouldn't have to mess with fuses anymore! thanks again! More replies welcomed!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: xsil11,
Nov 09, 2013, 03:55 PM
I was curious about this type of USDA loan, which I thought would probably be for farmland or rural area. I found some info, none of which is copyable, but I did learn that existing houses financed pursuant to this section must meet the state "voluntary national model building code" and "HCFP site and thermal standards", whatever those are.

So that must be the source for the requirements that the OP must meet.

Section 502 USDA loans

Given the "nit-picky" requirements, I would support what others wrote and hire an electrician; otherwise you could get into issues with the PA lending authority, especially if you did the work yourself and there were questions as to whether ir was properly done, safe, etc. Government-sponsored loans can be very specific in their requirements. PA may even have a list of approved electricians who know how to meet the loan standards. You might want to ask your realtor to have the borrower's realtor check with the PA lending office for electricians who've done this work and get one of them. Might save you some grief in the long run.

You might also want to find out for sure that the borrower is qualified under the defined qualification standards so that you don't make the modifications and later learn the borrower didn't meet the specific income standards.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GardenSprite,
Nov 09, 2013, 07:25 PM
I have dealt with some of these types of loans in the past (there is a thing out there called a 203K remodeling loan). they have many restrictions and requirements - to the point that if we are dealing with a homeowner who plans to finance through a 203K or similar loan process, we politely decline the job and walk away.

I'll admit to being biased - I do not like stupid.

As I said in my first post - this is not your problem, this is a problem for the potential buyer. If this is the type of financing they have chosen then it should be up to them to pay the extra costs associated with this financing plan. This is even more true considering that it appears that the "required" modifications could easily cost you several thousands of dollars.

So, if all these changes have to be made before the financing goes through then you need to adjust your price upwards to cover the additional costs. After all, there is no legal reason for you to make these changes, there is no code requirement that would force you to make these changes. The only reason that these potentially expensive changes are even on the table is at the request of the potential buyer via their choice of financing. Anyone using conventional financing would not have these requirements.

The only reason that you should even be considering doing these modifications is if you desperately need to sell. If you consider the cost to you if you sell to these people using a USDA restrictive loan, you could likely move the house just as fast if you dropped the cost by the estimated cost of the changes.

Nov 09, 2013, 08:42 PM
Further thoughts after reading all the responses again:

Have you signed the purchase agreement, and if so was it contingent on you making these changes? I.e., is the obligation on you, or are you interpreting, without legal mandate, that it's your responsibility?

Was it also contingent on the purchaser's obtaining satisfactory financing, or was it specifically geared to the Section 502 financing?

If as Jaybee points out, you are really desperate to sell, and if you haven't signed a purchase agreement, you could make a counter offer requiring the purchasers to pay for all the changes required for this financing.

I think that's only fair, as you wouldn't be making them otherwise.

Another issue to explore is the time frame for processing of the financing. These government loans typically take a lot longer than commercial loans. If you're not locked into a purchase agreement, you might be able to find a qualified purchaser who doesn't need government assistance, in the time it would take for the 502 financing to be finalized.

Something else to remember: this buyer doesn't have to make a down payment, so he/she/they aren't ponying up this money up front. Maybe they have the resources to make the mandated changes, maybe they don't. That's why I mentioned ensuring that they meet the qualifications.

They're getting this kind of financing for reasons which more than likely benefit them but not you.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GardenSprite,
Nov 10, 2013, 10:03 AM
Dealing with a federal agency is a real treat for sure. We did one job in the past tied to a USDA loan as I can recall. Never knew it even existed before that.
As Jaybee mentioned how odd those upgrades required are though. Seconding the thoughts mainly because no electrical code I know of requires a specified number of outlets per room upgrade, unless the walls are opened up, of course. And throwing out a number [3 per room] is arbitrary at best mainly because NEC guidelines for a bedroom must follow those specs quoted in the electrical code.
Now do federal agencies require this? HUD does for sure, as we having doing work for them {via county agencies} for years now. Even homeowners insurance companies will require certain upgrades. Say as in minimum of 100 amp services, GFCIs where needed, deadening K & T wiring, etc. But this is safety related, not a convenience issue.
What ever you decide, good luck.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CommonwealthSparky,

Popeye only reached for the Spinach can as a last resort...
Nov 10, 2013, 10:24 AM
Thank you again to everyone! Just to let you all know, NO I am in no hurry to sell to do these "required" upgrades for this type of loan! this is ridiculous! And I did make a mistake, its not 3 outlets required, it's two..but still..
And No, no purchase agreement has been signed for this soon as I saw what the buyer wanted, I said forget it, and countered it with my own..
I am very aware that the buyer most likely cannot afford all these costs, so as I see it, its their problem, not mine...I am patient, I can hold out to the bitter end and just wait for someone else to come up with a regular loan, not put up with this I told my realtor, who thought this was a good offer and I will probably be getting alot of offers from people in the same boat...THIS IS NOT A GOOD OFFER AND IF YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO ME IN THE FIRST PLACE, YOU WOULD KNOW THIS IS NOT A GOOD OFFER! But I am willing to come down some and possibly pay SOME closing costs, like $1000, but no more than that!
I realize I am not obligated to pay for all of these changes just because they want this type of loan..that is why I am willing to wait until someone has a regular type of loan, so I do not have to be made to do upgrades. I have the other house to think about, which I am paying cash for from the proceeds from this house, and I have all of those closing costs! Why make me pay for these too? is another thing I told my realtor..
But thanks so much again guys, and I will hold out for the right offer that is right for me. I do really appreciate your help! And by the way, I did sign a purchase agreement for my next home which had been up for sale for a year, and I put a deposit on it, so no one seems to be in a hurry to purchase that house, so that is why I can be patient and hold out for the right buyer for my house. I forgot to mention that my house is in a rural area..still..I will hold out for someone else! Thanks again!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: xsil11,
Nov 10, 2013, 01:02 PM
First, Just make sure that any time framework on the house you're purchasing doesn't pass; typically there are time limits in the purchase agreement specifying the deadline for closing.

If you have to, and given that your seller apparently had no other viable offers, explain the situation and prepare a Rider to the purchase agreement to address the time deadline, so you don't lose your deposit. And if you're on good terms, it wouldn't hurt to apprise him/her of your efforts so there are no misunderstandings.

Secondly, I wonder if your realtor realizes that he/she is working for you? If not, when the listing expires you might want to consider someone else.

Third, I'm glad you're not locked into selling your house to the purchaser who needs the USDA loan. If you eventually do need to retain another realtor, it wouldn't hurt to raise this issue and find out if USDA loans are truly that common in your area. I'm sure there's some database to which realtors have access which lists mortgagees of homes for existing families in certain areas.

Glad you've decided on a position that's good for you.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GardenSprite,
Nov 10, 2013, 04:32 PM
I am very glad to hear that this is your situation and decision. Like I said before - I don't like stupid. There is no reason for you to pay for unneeded 'requirements'.

Good luck with the sale, hopefully someone with realistic financing will come along soon.

And to second GardenSprites comments on your realtor: If they think this is a good deal then they are looking for their commission, not really working their best for you.

Nov 10, 2013, 06:24 PM
Realtors belong in that category alone with bankers, lawyers, hucksters selling items on TV when you get the second one free [except for paying double for shipping] and track side hobos. Sorry, hobos are a cut above the lot of them. I too would shop around as this realtor is more worried about the sale commission than he or she is about you. Wink
Just my two wheat pennies worth.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CommonwealthSparky,

Popeye only reached for the Spinach can as a last resort...
Nov 10, 2013, 10:48 PM
I think bankers are in a class all their own, especially those in positions of power at the Too Big to Fail banks.
Nov 11, 2013, 11:54 AM
this offer came in at the end of the month? perhaps the house has been on the listing for several months and the agent felt pressured?

it is nice to get everything you want for a bargain price. it is not always in a seller's interest to lose money on a sale. that's why it's called "bargaining." and if everybody's not happy, walking away is also a good option if you have it.

if you recently replaced the service panel without a red tag on the door, I suspect this is not a dog needing tens of thousands of maintenance. all houses have hidden "features" which in another universe (the buyers') are called "flaws."

mortgage money has become tight, and lenders want everything perfect these days. oh, the delayed maintenance we had to put in the folks' house when we had to estate-sale it. lot of long weekends working like dogs, with "hey, we got a looker, can we show this afternoon?" in the middle of several sessions.

you do what you can. good luck.

sig: if this is a new economy, how come they still want my old-fashioned money?
Nov 11, 2013, 12:37 PM
Thanks again everybody for the comments!! First I want to say, I wanted to sell my house myself, but went with this realtor, only because she is a "friend" and is the one who helped me "buy" this realtor then, I just figured I'd give her the chance to sell it figured she'd bring in the traffic..whatever..Second, Garden Sprite, the house I am purchasing, has been up for sale for over a year..and the realtor who has it says the time frame can be added to,,taken away,,etc..if worse comes to worse, I will probably not lose my deposit..and I do keep her apprised of what is going on, she thinks my situation is ridiculous too..if I do have to get another realtor, I will definitely!! Jaybee, I HATE STUPID TOO!! haha!! and tho my realtor says she is working for me..I wonder also!! She is just in it for the commission!! Commonwealth Sparky,,totally true with the catagories!! I agree wholeheartedly! swschrad, yes, the offer came in at the end of the house has only been listed for a few weeks..took off like wildfire..only with bumbling idiots coming thru and showing, lost my respect for all of them immediately! I told my realtor the other day, that I insist on being here when the house is shown, due to things that have happened, while me not being here, and not following the instructions they are supposed to follow..locked doors, broken locks on doors etc..her reply was, "well the house might not be shown that often then" I told her, thats too can tell them the reasons I listed, and if that is a problem, then U (the realtor) will have to be here to make sure it goes accordingly..I did not get a response from her, so oh well,,too bad! The way I see it, its my house, my money, my plans will not be ruined by anyone who does not care enough to do things properly! and No swschrad,there is no red tag on the panel..the way I see it, I have fixed this house up, spent alot of money fixing it up, and will eventually get what I need out of it, like I said, I am patient, I can hold out for the right person with the right offer! Thanks again everyone!! I will keep you all posted on what happens!! Wink
Nov 12, 2013, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by xsil11:
Second, Garden Sprite, the house I am purchasing, has been up for sale for over a year..and the realtor who has it says the time frame can be added to,,taken away,,etc..if worse comes to worse, I will probably not lose my deposit..)

Not to beat the issue to death, but I would be more comfortable with "definitely not losing a deposit" than "probably not."

I've found many realtors to be overbearing, thinking they're a combination of real estate agent, banker and lawyer all rolled into one. While I would rely on them for some aspects of real estate advice, I would not rely on them for legal advice on the possibility of losing a deposit.

I don't know if oral modifications are binding to written contracts, so that's another factor.

When I bought my house, my realtor was someone who I thought was good, but it turned out that she was quite stubborn in insisting she knew more than I did about legal descriptions. I sketched out the lot from the description, and it didn't match the square footage of the lot as listed.

She insisted I was wrong; I had worked in real estate law firms and knew something was amiss. After much disagreement and some arguing, she finally addressed the issue and we learned the sellers had acquired the property in two separate transactions, so there was another deed and legal description which hadn't been included in the purchase agreement and title work.

Had I not been persistent, I would have purchased the house and only part of the property, and the sellers would have retained title to a landlocked, inaccessible piece of what should have been included in the purchase price and the deed to me.

Don't let your realtor tell you what probably or probably won't happen when it comes to a deposit!
Nov 12, 2013, 09:08 AM
Thanks GardenSprite! sounds like ur talking about the realtor I have for my house!! haha..but I have an "out" for the house I am I can definitely get my deposit back if worse comes to worse...I appreciate your advice!! Thanks again!!
Nov 12, 2013, 09:35 AM
Good! Just want to make sure you're legally protected.

Good luck with selling your house.