Now its time for the AFCI 15a Light String.
Does this plan pass?

I re-did this plan. 10-23

Neutrals at each switch per 2011 nec.
Deep square junction pvc boxes with covers.
3 wires nutted max. ( i won't nut 4 wires in my own house ) 3 is nutty enough for me.

Thanks for the opinions and help!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

First and foremost list the wattage of ALL the fixtures your are planning on installing.

I am using can-lights which are only 75 watt rated also two 60w enclosed fixtures and 1 new construction 100w for utility room.
I am using the real rating in my below post and truncated the bathroom to its own future circuit.
I don't have permission to do the bathroom anyways.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

19 total lights.
( I updated the post above and below this one. )

Media room: 450w
Switch #1 Dim - Four 75 watt can
Switch #2 Dim - Two 75 watt can
---
Stairs: 60w
3 way switched - 60 watt enclosed
---
Shelter: 60w
1 Switch - 60 watt enclosed
---
Utility: 100w
1 Switch - 100 watt
---
Daycare: 450w
Switch #1 Dim = Three 75 watt can
Switch #2 Dim = Three 75 watt can
---
Craft: 300w
Switch #1 Dim = Two 75 watt can
Switch #2 Dim = Two 75 watt can
---
Bath = Gone I will add it later as its own 15a afi.
12x10 bath will have a lot of lights so it can have its own string.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

While your electrical buddy told you you can assume all fixtures are under 100watts, in the real world you never assume anything while wiring. Most important to tally those wattage's as exact as possible.
Here's why. Your original total wattage is 1440 watts, correct? Well you would think that would allow you to install 14AWG copper, rated for 15 amps. But here is the kicker. The NEC rating for continuance loads require that the load be 80% of the rated load of the copper. Meaning 14AWG copper can safely carry 12 amps of current, not the 15 amps that size copper is rated for. Your total lands smack dab on that number so I use the next larger size copper. So you would have to wire using 12AWG copper to perform all the lighting tasks you drew up. Clear as mud I bet.
Asking about if it is allowable to wire your media room as such, well it is as long as you have separate neutral and grounding present. Your draw up does not perform that aspect properly, or I may just be missing something.
I too wonder about your description of using deep round boxes for junction boxes. While deep octagon boxes will help, you may run into "box fill" calculation problems {NEC 314.16}. When I see an octagon box being used for junction boxes I see a novice at work. Think about using deep 4x4 square boxes instead.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CommonwealthSparky,

15 amps is 1800w max @ 20% loss = 1440 usable.
I am at 1420w.
20w remaining.
--

Update: I ran it as 14-2 and 14-3. I am using 15 amp afci breaker.


Good point about media room neutral.
It should actually be pig tailed before the light box in its own j-box because apparently we're not allowed to use light box as a junction anymore said an electrician I called.
Today 10-23 i called the State Inspector and he told me its ok to "pigtail" to a source in a light box as long as there is room for it.
Considering i have wire. I might as well use it.
I am using a junction to go to each separately for future remodel -split circuit needs etc.) It's just easier in the future if need to make changes, everything is the same. Sorted like google's ceiling .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

quote:

Originally posted by JB Builder:
Buddy told me to assume all boxes are "at least" 100 watts while i was only pondering.
15 amps is 1800 watts max @ 20% loss = 1440 usable.
I am at 1420.
There is 20 watts remaining.
--
I will use 12 gauge wire on 15a circuit for now.
Later i will purchase 20a afi breaker for it before inspection.

Good point about media room neutral.
It should actually be pig tailed before the light box in its own j-box because apparently we're not allowed to use light box as a junction anymore but i will look into this new information.

As for 4 inch rounds. Extra deep.
I will use those elsewhere and pickup some deep square ones so the inspector thinks I am professional.
Thanks for the help

True, you do have twenty watts remaining when you work the numbers. But it is my experience that changes always occur during the install, plus you have no wiggle room available for future work. May want to keep that in mind.
And using deep four square boxes look better to an inspector but may be required when factoring in box fill calculations as mentioned above. Not that it would change things dramatically but until you work the numbers you never know. {The inspector might do that}.
It could very well be that in your jurisdiction that you can not use that media room set up that you have draw up. So if you can't that is fine as well. I am not a big fan of those set ups but do use them when working in a tough location while remodeling older homes. And they are no problem here with inspectors, but they have the final say and always run the gamut with judgement.
You seem to have a good handle on what you want to do. Good luck with the project...

Thanks for insight and determination of the changes i've made while reading your information.
I have since changed layout, type of lights, J-box sizes and thoroughly thought things over and now have a final plan.
However i do have a few questions mixed into my above posts which I will remove invalid info from if possible.
I will fetch the questions and add them below this line so i can remove other posts but feel free to leave your quotes of my posts archived.

1. Can i put doorbell on bathroom lights?
or does it have to be under the stairs?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

if everything is turned on, you are at full capacity. code requires that a single-service line never be loaded to more than 80% of wire ampacity.

I'd split this into two circuits just for the randy heck of it, because I grew up in a house where the "lights" fuse took out almost all the lights and outlets at once. it's greatly inconvenient to lose everything, and you have plenty of reserve if you have to pull out the carpet cleaner in the day care.

sometimes code is the barest minimum, and you can do better if the local authorities like it. they are... the Final Inspector.

swschrad,
I'm not over the 1440 watts continual load total.
I am 20 watts below this and probably should use 2nd breaker but it's not needed or can be added later if needed because it is drop ceiling.
Easy panel access and i have about 8 junction boxes available breaking the rooms up into basic sections.
I won't be using a lightbox as a junction to power other circuits etc. So i am using big junction boxes.
Also we plan to own this house and then turn it into a "nice" rental later. People won't be allowed to make changes. Unless that people is me
Thanks for the info.
I should have update of the newest layout pictures above which were not updated yet when you posted.
Thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

quote:

Originally posted by JB Builder:

Also we plan to own this house and then turn it into a "nice" rental later. People won't be allowed to make changes. Unless that people is me

You should allow for the very real possibility that a renter can (and will) easily replace some light bulbs with some of a higher wattage. Since you are running the numbers so close already, now would be the time to run that second circuit - especially if the future rental plans are likely.

JayBee,
Exactly my thoughts for later once i turn it into rental (if happens) i will toss 50 bucks and an hour time into it by splitting all cfl-dimmable only can-lights into one circuit then other will be Bath + Utility room and newest one will be
Stair, Shelter, shed + doorbell + future lights.

Right now i don't need to spend the 50 bucks.
So i will wait until next money tree season.
I will check on the rule for renters burning the house down if they use light bulbs higher rated than max listed rating on fixture. This might be something i am easily trained with later when we get into rental language.
Also i would stipulate in agreement they are not to use light bulbs higher rated than the fixture is clearly indicated through out the house. (if allowed to say this)
Some type of warning page they must sign saying they have read it. ::thumbs::
And i will have cfl dimmers for Media, Daycare and Craft rooms with cfl bulbs in them also.
The can-lights will be cfl required when I am done because of their special cfl dimmer switches.
So actually they will be 75 watt max but will be dimmable CFL required and tagged for this purpose.

I'm glad i'll only be using approx 508w of light bulbs instead
I couldn't imagine filling 1420w but it is expected of course.
Renters will be safe. I will split circuit if we rent but they should still follow the max ratings.

p.s. I'm glad i have 9 of my 18 outlets wired.
Today i take a break and fix the snow blower

I updated the above 2 images.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

The door bell transformer will draw very little current,[and stepping down the voltage from 120v to say 24v] so in my opinion you can place where it works out best for your in your layout....Plus its use is so infrequent, factoring in that.
If the bathroom light is a fan/lite drawing its feed from the bath GFCI, which is legal to do as long as the GFCI does not feed another bath outlet somewhere else, which is legal as well,[another story in itself] you can not use that for the doorbell. But that is REALLY splitting hairs there.
Concerning light fixtures, all should have a sticky informing all concerned the allowable wattage allowed in the said fixture. So including that in the renters agreement is a CYA on your part...Wise, but would be quite hard to prove after a fire, I would think....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CommonwealthSparky,

and who reads the load tag on a light fixture? at some point, if somebody can screw 300 watt bulbs into those cans they will try.

what we're all trying to say is that if you design right up to the edge of the laws of physics, sooner or later you're going to get smacked by the textbook, because nothing made by or for man is failproof. The Code doesn't flat out say that, but it should.

it's your house, but this basement should be on at least two circuits for convenience and to accommodate changing usage styles as the years wear on.

JB Builder,

There are standard lease forms which you can use and add a Rider (attachment) incorporating the specifics on the electrical issues.

At some point in the Lease, you would add this language:

"See Rider A attached hereto and made a part hereof."

Given the issues on specific lights and wattages, it would be wise to include something like a floor plan or diagram of all the lights which cannot be used for more than the planned bulb wattages. You'll need to be very, very specific on these fixtures when you include them in a rider to a lease.

There typically is an acknowledgment or in legal parlance, a "jurat" at the end of the various terms of many legal documents by which the tenants could acnowledge that they "have read the foregoing document (i.e., the lease) and executed it of their own free will".

To emphasize this, you can add a clause to the effect that they have also specifically read the terms of the Rider (which they should do anyway), acknowledge the electrical constraints, understand them and agree to adhere to them.

You might also want to add that you as landlord bear no responsibility for the misuse and/or failure of the tenants to comply with the electrical requirements.

If you really want to reach and be an aggressive landlord, you can add a clause which requires them to "indemnify, hold harmless and defend" you against any failure to comply with the electrical terms and any consequential damages arising therefrom.

If they sign this, you'll be a very lucky person. If they take the lease to an attorney, most likely he/she would advise them not to sign anything with an indemnification clause in it. (I wouldn't.) But if you have concerns about potential tenants, it's a means to cover yourself. However, they may not have the resources to actually indemnify you, so it could be an empty commitment. Just something to think about.

Good info everyone! Thanks !
Yeah, to make things easier.
Soon as I get 40 dollars, i am going to buy another AFI breaker split things up and even so in the future I will do the same overtime by putting Media, Daycare and Craft on their own afi breaker individually.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JB Builder,

quote:

Originally posted by swschrad:
and who reads the load tag on a light fixture? at some point, if somebody can screw 300 watt bulbs into those cans they will try.

what we're all trying to say is that if you design right up to the edge of the laws of physics, sooner or later you're going to get smacked by the textbook, because nothing made by or for man is failproof. The Code doesn't flat out say that, but it should.

it's your house, but this basement should be on at least two circuits for convenience and to accommodate changing usage styles as the years wear on.

On this planet, most likely I may be the only one that reads those oddly placed labels.
As I lamp out all the fixtures I install, thus allowing me to sleep @ nite. What happens after that who knows, but I can live with that as well.
As JB Builder is properly installing ACFI breakers try running that cost across the homeowners brain. Rule # 1. ALWAYS mention the cost and the code requirements of those expensive critters...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CommonwealthSparky,

Yep, LOL.
AFCI required in any new construction.
Oh the joy' of proper installation.
I won't put a screw into the wire but I do like this requirement; not the cost.
I already purchased my final Afci CB last night.
Now i just need a few more hard to find 15a G.E, 1 inch double poles to top off the cake.